I've been thinking about this for sometime.
As the last true Lore followed faction slowly fades away in the game. What will be the next factioned themed Evil RP guild?
I've been involved with the topic of "Evil Roleplaying" for several years. We have seen Scourge, Cultists, and most recently been seeing the Twilight Hammer and the Scourge Remnants around.
But looking back to the Server's history of Evil Roleplaying guilds, its hard to imagine one that has established long enough to truly place itself in a ever changing lore of Warcraft. Take for example...once upon a time, I led a guild called "The Purge of Stormwind" which lasted from 2006 to 2007. (Yes that was a long time ago!) That really centered around the Scourge and acted as a Cult of the Damned around Stormwind City.
But with the end of Deathwing and the slowly rising Mist of Pandaria.
What will be the next Alliance Evil RP guild?
I've experimented and attempted all sorts of Evil RP guilds on my career on Earthen Ring. I've really mainly sticked with full fledged evil Super Villian-like guilds from the Venture Brothers for the past few years. And rarely did get outside of that genre.
Crime RP guilds has been a rather tricky business on the Server for many years now. And it seems to be one that rarely takes a fully developed root into the sever as far as I can tell.
And I've attempted to do something silly as some of you may remember...the glorious Foot Clan. But that lacked the major themed to keep it running and I did lack Four Teenange Mutant Turtles to have epic battles against.
I personally believe that knowing how our server history, we may see more Crime guilds popping up or maybe seeing some lone-wolf Villians for awhile rather then an actual themed guild.
Or maybe a new "Council of the Eye" for you Veteran Earthen Ringers? A collective group of just...Evil/Neutral-sh minded characters together?
An idea of mine has been making a Radical collective group of...lets say...Humans since much of this has been centered around Stormwind City.
I've always pondered the idea of having a radical and extremist group of Humans that really follows the ideology of Garithos form Warcraft 3. Maybe this would be considered as a "Racist" guild but really staying to the theme of "Humanity is in Peril" so being very Pro-War and aggresive status with the Horde.
Or would we see something along the lines of Mist of Pandaria?
Maybe some...band of lawless bandits made up of Monks and Fanatics?
Well, either way. I'm looking forward to responses and the thoughts of other Roleplayers!
Kayonie Striker said:
I have some small amount of input in regards to crime Role play: try it at your own risk. I attempted to lead a crime guild, and do not recommend the experience to anyone wishing to enjoy their subscription to the game.
Here, here. I ran one aaages ago and while it was fun sometimes, it was largely an enormous headache.
Indeed. The last Villain Guild, I think, that was successful in any way was The Grey Lodge, mostly because it was made up of a majority of the server's older, more intelligent RPers. Not to mention some had things to do with the Council of The Eye.
They did everything right. Their characters seemed neutral at first glance, their actions were always in the dark and obscured, and they focused on more psychological villainy than just "I AM AN SUPER VILLAIN. I SHALL BLOW UP THE LOCAL BAR AND ATTACK PEOPLE INDISCRIMINATELY."
We need more stuff like that. Not crime guilds who are about as stealthy as a dead elephant.
Blatant evil is like a candle flame in the wind - it is obvious and vulnerable to every gust or puff of wind around it. Subtle evil can lurk among the crowd and never be noticed till the most inopportune time.
Guilds centered around evil likewise will survive or crumble to these whims. Successful evil guilds in the past tended to err on the side of subtle, with ambiguity as their friend, and a disarming, almost cheerful facade to keep the good guys from glancing too closely. This is hard to do.
Evil can be roleplayed by anyone, but evil done well is difficult to describe as well as execute. Everyone has their own definitions of evil, and very often, the good guys are eager to snatch the bad guys. Sometimes the varying definitions of evil and over-eager good guys frustrate or snuff out evil roleplay too quickly.
I think a lot of advice put forth is sound, if someone chooses to found an evil RP guild on the server again. Subtle seems better, experience appears key, and patience is a virtue on both sides. There is no fun without a chase, no mystery in declaring yourself the bane of the living in public. If evil is fun for you, keep those tidbits in mind to ensure that your fun lasts instead of poofs.
Kormok Wraithverge said:
Call me old fashioned, but wouldn't it just be better to make guilds at cross purposes with one another rather than outright evil? I don't think I've ever seen a purely evil-concepted guild do well.
I have a hard time getting into the idea of a villainous guild (or even a purely villainous character) for a few reasons. Part of it is because the field of villany has been sewn with so many bad examples that even those well played villains come across as cliched godmodders. The larger part of my avoidance is that I would much, much rather play an antagonistic character vs. a villainous one.
What's the difference? Well I'm glad you asked.
You could go by the pure definitions of the terms, and I think that sums it up fairly well. I'll take it a step further and say that from what I've seen in RP a villain is often out to perpetuate sinister goals with the purpupse of creating generalized dramatic tension. An antagonist in RP could have any sort of goals (even villainous ones) but their aim is more focused, instead of creating tension on a general long-term level they create it on a case-by-case basis, usually with a specific protagonist (or set of protagonists) in mind.
The OP referenced The Guild of Calamitous Intent from The Venture Bros. TV show. In addition to being a delightful source of quotes this is also a really nice example of a setting & entity that has both antagonistic and villainous qualities to it. There is a great moment in the series when the two (arguably) main characters, who up until this point have had an ongoing 'nemesis' relationship, have been separated by the aforementioned guild. In return they're given alternate antagonists that they have to deal with, which have various degrees of success.
I couldn't really go into more detail without giving major spoilers (seriously go watch the show) but the series really makes a point of the fact that not all villains are equally interchangeable. The ones that fall flat during that arc are the ones that just show up and attack (causing dramatic tension) simply because that's what they are expected to do. The episodes I enjoyed the most always featured characters that antagonized one another for interesting personal reasons, sometimes while being forced to work side-by-side.
RP, even that RP which focuses on the heroic narrative, is often about relationships with other player characters, because otherwise we'd just be writing stories. Creating an antagonist that meshes with the ambitions of the protagonists* will always create a better story. I also think that because of this distinction OOC communication is far more likely to show up, which always makes a RP situation better.
*I equally loath the misuse of 'hero' as a blanket term for protagonists. A protagonist can have heroic qualities, but it's not required.
PS: Saned's post is awesomesauce!
There's something I'd also like to touch upon, if I may. I've yet to see an "evil" guild that has succeeded and flourished without accepting the consequences of their actions. I think that in order to be successful there needs to be some sort of ooc agreement or work with other folks to ensure that there's some sort of balance. This would ideally work out well for all parties since the evil people can do their worst and not have to worry that ever good guy in the vacinity is going to show up and demand their heads. What the idea is predicated on is that the evil guild fosters a feeling of fairness. They agree that they can't teleport in, burn down an orphanage then flee unhindered into the night and in return the other parties agree that since the evil folks can be aprehended or punished, there's no reason to oppose them in force to the greatest extent of their abilities.
It's true that a lot of seemingly fun ideas are ruined if you get caught and have to rot in jail, but consequences to actions are necessary if everyone is to enjoy the event or random pop-up RP. I think if both sides treat each other fairly and an agreement that benefits the evil guys and the good guys is worked out that it would lead to a fun time for everyone without any feelings of resentment and fears of godmodding.
I think that an evil guild or an evil character can perform well, especially if it's an original and new idea. We've seen in the past that enemy faction guilds and mafia-style guilds tend to have a hard time. A fresh new spin on evil might do a lot of good, but I cannot stress enough the importance of accepting consequences and working with others to ensure it's fair and fun.
It's fair to say that my opinion on this subject is very single minded, but I've seen a number of evil things fall by the wayside because they didn't work ooc with folks on consequences.
I agree with Kormok on this one. No one actually thinks they're evil, which is why I've never really liked the cultist as this expansion's big bad guys and probably why Monroe never took them -that- seriously. They're just laughable, at any moment they could have destroyed Stormwind or Orgrimmar but instead they hatched out idiotic half schemed ideas with no support. They're the lamest villains we've fought to date :p
What a villainous guild could do is have something in direct confrontation to the majority of other guilds. The Legion fits a lot of the qualificiations to be an evil guild but it'll never be actually evil. Maybe if a guild wants enemies it could combat the legion in some way. We and the Wretched souls have a long history of doing just that.
Maybe someone could create a guild that thought their guild leader should be crowned king and open up a revolt? That would meet the qualifications. Maybe they want a Republic and overthrow of the King? I think originally Halonan wanted to be more combative for example. That too would fit the requirepments. Maybe they're wanting an independent and free Westfall?
I guess a lot of the evil guilds, the scourge based, the twilight's hammer based, etc are all based on the current expansion. We don't say see too many Burning Legion cultist around. I think if you're basing a guild around the big baddies of the day you'll find that at the end of the expansion you've kind of collapsed.
Benjamin Monroe said:
"Maybe they want a Republic and overthrow of the King? I think originally Halonan wanted to be more combative for example. That too would fit the requirepments. Maybe they're wanting an independent and free Westfall?"
You make a very good point Benjamin; well all that have replied to the original post have made good points. However, what was said about Westfall brings in a whole other set of ideas. What if Westfall wanted freedom from the over reaching hand of Stormwind. In all honesty, until the most recent expansion what has Stormwind done for Westfall, heck even after the expansion?
Originally, Stormwind did not want to help Westfall with their Defias, and Gnoll problems... Heck, they would not even supply weapons to Westfall. Now, Westfall has a whole set of new problems, Stormwind’s homeless. What exactly is Stormwind doing about that issue? It could be compared to England’s and Scotland's previous issues before the UK was formed; or even Northern Ireland's issues. A rebel force for the freedom of Westfall would be a very valid guild, though I am not sure they would be considered evil by many except the Nobles of Stormwind and those who are making some profit from Westfall.
There is a host of ideas, scenarios, and other random villainy that could be done if one came up with a solid plan, a goal, and a guild that works together for a common cause. Take Stromgarde for example: I cannot say, from reading Lore in game or out of game that Stormwind wants anything to do with Stromgarde at the moment. Stromgarde wanted to kill the invading Orc army whereas Terenas decided to show mercy on the Orcs, putting them in camps with the hope that they would loose their fight, or bloodlust. So even with that set of Lore one could be an angry Orc hater that despised the choice that was made during the second war, which bleeds into Cata because the Orcs are once again slowly moving in on the allience? Again, a guild that follows that part of Lore may not be considered an "evil" guild, but would be hated by some of the current Nobles of the land.
LOL, did not get the quote thing right.
I'm going to throw in my support with Kormok's view of things. Outright villainy has very rarely succeeded in my experience. Instead, we should focus on guilds with competing goals. With MoP's supposed increased emphasis on the Horde/Alliance war (since there will be no central antagonist in MoP), I think that in the leadup following the defeat of Deathwing there will be increased friction between the factions within the factions. I know, for the Horde's part, that there are two schools of thought. Some believe we should stop our aggressive expansion and seek reconciliation with the Alliance, while others (Etar included) are pushing for increased military operations now that the threat of the Cult is gone. There have already been flared tempers, and I expect this will get worse after what happens in 5.0.
Being an outright villain is tough, and few people want to do it. Why? Because it's almost impossible for them to ultimately "win". Whenever a villain crops up Hordeside and threatens the Tears, for instance, the immediately get dogpiled. How can someone compete with that without godmodding? Don't focus on villains. Focus on antagonists.
My two copper.
Subigo Rex said:
I'm a bit hesitant to comment here but... the Twilights Hammer is still in existence. Deathwing may be destroyed, but they never served Deathwing above all else; N'zoth still exists, and it has always been the Old Gods they've followed. We're not going anywhere anytime soon. Yes, the guild has had issues in the past. Yes, we've had bad apples. But I am trying my very best to get us back on track, and I really won't be able to do that without support from the community. Evil RP guilds arn't there to destroy things, or to recruit more minions, or even to do evil. Above all else, evil RP is a way to help the 'heroes' grow. Your characters can grow fine with only good things happening, but it can bring out even more if they are opposed by something they truly believe is evil. It's a bit of a dead forum post, but I do ask that you give us a chance. Ask me if you want evil RP. I'd love to make events with really anyone. Just don't count us out.
Focus more on the mental and moral corruption of the Old God's influence instead of simply destroying, kidnapping, killing, and being mysterious and forboding for the sake of being mysterious and forboding. Also, make sure people in the Guild understand how a Cultist's mind would work. Someone wouldn't join Twilights Hammer for their own agenda. They'd join it because they're gullible enough to be manipulated into giving their lives for the Old Gods and whatever else they are ordered to do.
Malifact said:
Focus more on the mental and moral corruption of the Old God's influence instead of simply destroying, kidnapping, killing, and being mysterious and forboding for the sake of being mysterious and forboding. Also, make sure people in the Guild understand how a Cultist's mind would work. Someone wouldn't join Twilights Hammer for their own agenda. They'd join it because they're gullible enough to be manipulated into giving their lives for the Old Gods and whatever else they are ordered to do.
We've actually been trying to do this already, Malifact. Thank you for the suggestion though.