Hey folks, normally things like this aren't taken into forum discussion but this being somewhat differant and unique. I felt that I needed to bring this to the community to discuss about it OOCly.
Some of you may know this or have heard about it, but Kelsus has requested to become a Magistrate. And well...it's been six months since he's requested and gone through the "Application process". With no word or anything really in sight for the past few months.
I do understand that the current Roleplayers who are Magistrates have to deal with Real Life, but when this goes on for this amount of time, what does the community do about it?
From what, I've seen...all magistrates have been self-proclaimed. Or been nomimated by someone and then really set themselves as one. I do understand there was once an "Election" back in 2006 for a Magistrate.
But times have changed, and I chose to take an alternative way to become Magistrate ICly. And have been really in Limbo. I want to ask you folks here in the community, when the Magistrates have failed to deliver their duty, do we go into divine internvention and claim that the Nobles or even the King approve a Magistrate?
What do we do in this situation?
Celestyna Brightmore said:
Well, to throw in my 2 cents... there's a heck of a lot of Arch-somethings around too, which I've always found to be a bit surprising. I'm not sure how they all came to be, but I doubt they were all elected or approved of by the community or whatever. I THINK that you could even self-appoint yourself to whatever it is that you wish to be - as long as you cook up a story as to how it all happened AND manage to play your part accordingly..? And no, that wasn't a stab at the archmages and -druids and such, just a ponderling. (It's a word now.)
Archmage is a title that comes with position in some cases, but in most cases through expanded learning. Like getting a Doctorate from college. Any number of persons can attain the title Archmage if they grown in knowledge and power. In some cases there is process among their peers. Grant me this is taken from the RPG books and therefore not 100% cannon, but as there has been nothing specifically mentioned in the game itself I feel it is safe to asume. The following is what I refrence
Wowpedia; Archmage:
Archmages can come from any arcane caster class as long as they have a sufficient level of arcana and spellcraft knowledge. They must have the ability to cast arcane spells and spells from at least five of the schools of magic at a certain level of proficiency. They must also spell focus in two schools of magic.
This is off subject however and not what the OP was asking about. My appologies that I do not have an answer for you Kelsus. Good luck with your venture however, I look forward to seeing the outcome.
In essence Kelsus, yes, you are correct in the assumption that the great majority of the Magistrates have been self made. There was also the election back in 2006 for one, as was a voting concil by the sitting magistrates to elect another. Some were self made from the get go, while others roleplayed slowly climbing the chain of command.
For your situation. Poke them if you haven't already. If all you are getting is stalled responses or none action, then try another course.
Regardless of how the magistrate came about, their power in play was controled by one simple fact: The ability to be accepted by the community for the role they play. Without this acceptence, it is a hollow RP title that will garner little roleplay or action for the community at large.
I will be blunt here, and please pardon me if the following comments sound harsh. The intent is provoke critical thinking on your part and your desire to play a Magistrate:
-- Is your desire to be magistrate part of wanting to foster further Roleplay and give import to the idea of law in the grand plot arc of Stormwind, or simply to add another proverbial jewel your character's crown of roles? Too often has someone taken the role of magistrate to simply brandish the title. Too often have some taken the title, be proactive for the first few weeks and then put their role sit on the mantle next to their trophies. Too often have they simply been purely reactive to events around them or forget the face of law they are suppose to maintain to the public.
-- Are you prepared to deal with both the IC and OOC politics involved in this? Their are other magistrates, absent as they are right now, with their own agendas in character that may move against your character's. Some of these intents are benign and lawfully, simply politic as you may call it. Others are often illegal, and fly in the face moral action. OOCly, you will have deal with people politics as well, as to be expected in a roleplay enviroment.
-- Do you have time to manage this role effectly? Kelsus, to your credit you do quite abit already. You manage a large guild, run events and plots along with your general roleplay. Being a magistrate will add to your already heartily filled plate.
As I said, I am not trying to be harsh, just provoke some thought with what I have seen and experienced with the magistrates over the years.
Now. You want to be a magistrate? Go for it. I applaud the fact that you tried to move through their channels to be included, but if they are not going to respond to your character with a yes or no for whatever reason, then it may be time to persue another option of admittance.
Halonan Orebender said:
An Election perhaps?
Agreed. There should be elections for civilian magistrates.
There is a catch to magistrate, marshal, and even Guard positions versus other powerful positions: they give the character power over nearly-all other characters, whereas archmages, archdruids, high priestesses and generals are exclusive to their respective organizations. So, players don't raise as much ruckus over those titles as they do over universal authority titles. Due to the IC powers involved, players tend to reject characters who are not knowledgable, attentative, law-abiding magistrates. They're considered questionably-IC characters who may be influenced by their players OOCly, expressing apathy over issues they don't care about and making heavily-bias decisions even given the characters' associations.
Put simply, a shady magistrate tends to be seen as a "minion of so-and-so" who only uses their powers when it's relevant to their RP and benefits their chars, even where it doesn't make sense.
So magistrate applicants who aren't sure whether they'll be seen as minions of so-and-so who don't RP the role unless it benefits them don't want to self-declare the role; they want to be formally accepted by somebody, be it other magistrates or the community. Acceptance makes the character's magistrate title more "legitimate" and seem less as if the role was given for OOC convenience.
Either route's fine. We've finished Kelsus's exam, as I told you a few days ago, and all we need to do is have him take the exam and his acceptance or rejection will be settled. In terms of elections, the current magistrates OOCly think they're a bad idea due to the "popularity contest" aspect, although if you go that route I'd be glad to help you find someone else to run against Kelsus and lend OOC help in organizing it. In the past I was a hardcore advocate of magistrate elections and could give some tips on it, although I'll forewarn they take a significant amount of time and effort and will likely be questioned OOCly regardless of how fair we try to make them.
That being said, I've also sent you a letter in your ERN inbox prior to noticing this thread which details what we're going to be up to this season, and you'll note your application's the first item addressed in it. The sooner you do what I've asked in it, the sooner we'll have this done.
Wrote this in the morning! Did not post it till now.
The election itself was the farthest thing from an election you could get. It was this OOC popularity contest between myself and an unstable individual named Archin. What occured was this. People's MRPs got put buttons me for president, or him for president. A single debate occured that sounded like we were running for senate. And then he declared himself the winner and became magistrate. Despite being a known murderer.
Then he had one trial where pirates raided it, tableflipped and was never seen again. I threw a party as a result.
The election was a joke. PLain and simple. ALSO to point out our current 'situation' with magistrates, they're all having various points of being indisposed, and right now that's being handled behind the scenes. The 'magistrate' roleplay itself is currently on hold as all that's being sorted out, and right now, our roleplay style is not meshed for it thanks to a giant dragon shaped loonie in the sky.
Hopefully when we all in character go "WOO" that he's dead, it can indeed make a come back at which time the magistrates will be reviewed, and most likely either revamped or rebuilt to better suit the roleplay needs. And most likely at the time Kelsus will prolly be added. Honestly right now it's just one of those 'non issues' that we've been so far not had the time to really look into.
As for checks and balances against magistrates popping up, there -are-. It's called every guild on the alliance usually -supports- the idea of them being a magistrate. Sirithil said it, and got the okay from all the RP guilds around at the time, Remia got the blessing of all the guilds, and so did Kalren. THat's pretty much what made it appointing. Otherwise all the guild heads tended to just say "No".
Not to mention all the stuff tha requires for Magistrate stuff to even work. We're kinda lacking it right now. Building that up for it to even work period is kinda needed. SO yeah.
The role of a magistrate is a community service position. Regardless of processes, elections, popularity contests, or any individual pride, the following questions should be answered first:
1) Is there a vocal demand for another magistrate from the community as a whole?
2) Is there an identifiable need for another magistrate?
3) Is there an identifiable gain to the community as a whole by adding another magistrate?
4) If an individual desires recognition as a magistrate, what critical community function are they presently incapable of doing which only the recognition of magistrate provides?
If the answers to those four questions do not present an irrefutable need for another magistrate, then adding a new magistrate is pointless, regardless of who it would be. So, who shall answer those four questions, first?
On a personal note, I think that we should wait until MoP hits before we do anything like this.
As a Horde RPer who's not been in touch with Ally side plots since TBC launched, could someone explain what a magistrate -does-? I mean on a meta level. What RP things happen from having that title? And how is there a community "need" for the role?
Because I am RL a lawyer, I have found every RP trial beyond painful even when people were trying to do it seriously. No reflection on the RP, I can't watch TV lawyer shows either. Do magistrates function as anything but judges in this RP venue?
Thank you for posting your feedback and concerns, I was hoping that Kalren, Remia, or even Sirithil could post a few things over here but i'll try to fill in the boxes as best as I can for you, Emberfall.
1) Is there a vocal demand for another magistrate from the community as a whole?
Well, the Magistrate position has always been a bit of much debate over the past few years on Earthen Ring Alliance side. But there is certainly always a need of a form of Judge. I do have to agree with Calithos on the point that things have been really neglected and set aside but that is really been a bit painful for myself, since I've applied ICly for the position since late Summer/Early Fall.
2) Is there an identifiable need for another magistrate?
I would say so, we must be a bit honest here...things have really dropped down in Stormwind City. And I feel that by creating a realm of law and court, it could spark a few things. From my understanding, there hasn't been a trial in ages and that the Stormwind Guard has been very unactive since they lack an active Magistrate to handle the IC punishments and ect.
3) Is there an identifiable gain to the community as a whole by adding another magistrate?
I feel that the community has long neglected Stormwind RP. When I applied to become a Magistrate on Kelsus, it was a time of great...disorder and chaos, and I feel that the current status of things, the betrayel of the Archbishop and what not has made a larger desire for political RP change and ect. So in a sense, I strongly do believe that this would be the time for a Magistrate to step up and take on curroption.
4) If an individual desires recognition as a magistrate, what critical community function are they presently incapable of doing which only the recognition of magistrate provides?
I'm unsure how to answer this. I chose the road of working and cooperationing with the current Magistrates at the time, Datina, Remia, Sirithil, and Kalren to organize an application process of having Kelsus become one ICly. But as I've pointed and raised, there has been delay after delay and OOCly. I'm a bit pushed on the wall in this RP.
Again, I was hoping that Remia, Sirithil, or Kalren to fully talk and discuss about this here and I am sorry that if I wasn't able to fill in many the gaps. Truly, I'm just trying this out and seeing of where the role of "Law Enforcement" and "Justice System" is going at in the community especially in Stormwind City.
But as Kalren already posted, I've finally received the "Magistrate Exam" and currently in the process of working with it. Sadly, I do not know of any news from Remia or Sirithil. :(
Jenafeine Medicio said:
As a Horde RPer who's not been in touch with Ally side plots since TBC launched, could someone explain what a magistrate -does-? I mean on a meta level. What RP things happen from having that title? And how is there a community "need" for the role?
Because I am RL a lawyer, I have found every RP trial beyond painful even when people were trying to do it seriously. No reflection on the RP, I can't watch TV lawyer shows either. Do magistrates function as anything but judges in this RP venue?
I've been on this server since 2005. And it is my understanding that a Magistrate is an In-Character Judge of the Alliance or rather specifically the Kingdom of Stormwind. And has always worked hand and hand in politics of the community and especially with the Stormwind Guard in managing crime and cases of it.
It is my understanding that in the time of Earthen Ring, there has been about several Magistrates namely Sirithil and Kalren. Magistrates really help organize trials and of course run their Roleplay which at times, can be very interesting and amazing storylines.
It is noted that the role of Magistrate is a great and important one in the community of the Alliance. And does follow with alot of activity and time due to the lengthy and hardy processes of trials and organzing them.
3) Is there an identifiable gain to the community as a whole by adding another magistrate?
I feel that the community has long neglected Stormwind RP. When I applied to become a Magistrate on Kelsus, it was a time of great...disorder and chaos, and I feel that the current status of things, the betrayel of the Archbishop and what not has made a larger desire for political RP change and ect. So in a sense, I strongly do believe that this would be the time for a Magistrate to step up and take on curroption.
I'm curious. Whose characters have been affected by this corruption? I haven't seen any of that. At all.
Edit: I mean legally, not personally. In the sense that it takes on a huge, enveloping arc of affect on the community.
Reading this, it is appearing as though a magistrate is being perceived as a more inflated role then it should be. I could be totally wrong here, but here is what I was under the impression of what a magistrate was (based on past questions from Kalren/Chiori and from past roleplays):
Velhari DeMare said:
1. A magistrate is not a community moderator.
I agree. They're arbiters OOC and voluntary tools for plot progression IC.
2. A magistrate can't claim to politically change the inner workings of Stormwinds politics.
Agreed. It would be more accurate to say that a magistrate is ruled by those inner workings than the other way around.
3. A magistrate is just a job the character has. It does not give OOC special powers to the Magistrate player.
I agree that it does not grant special OOC powers; however, the position does have OOC expectations. Anyone who has been a magistrate or been a part of the OOC efforts behind it will tell you that there is plenty of labor. It is a service job.
4. The main OOC role of a magistrate is to handle IC disputes, and that's only if the player asks for magistrate involvement. The most common form of this is trials.
There are two primary roles: the one you mentioned, and that of attempting to harmonize the RP environment.
E.g.: A character attempts to murder another well-known character in an alley. The attack is unsuccessful, but the perpetrator is captured. The player of the character that was assaulted says that their character is of great importance--a noble, or a wealthy land owner--while the other player freely admits that their character is an average citizen of Stormwind. Both want a trial, and agree to a magistrate's involvement.
The player of the character that was assaulted claims that Stormwind would take extra measures to punish a commoner for assaulting a person of great importance, and that the death penalty is an obvious answer. The player of the assaulting character argues that the death penalty would be far too harsh, since no life was taken. Both players have other players supporting their arguments.
In the above case, there is the IC need for judgement and an OOC need for arbitration. To avoid splitting the community and provide continuity of the story of the whole of roleplay in Stormwind, they trust in the magistrate to find an answer. The answer is intended to please both parties enough so that they accept the it at 'canon,' and life goes on.
While such work may sound contrived or controlling (and believe me when I say that I would quickly and aggressively denounce the latter), it is one of the tools we have used to mostly maintain a single Stormwind--a shared plot, history, and overall continuity.
5. The only way to gauge the need for a magistrate is dependent upon the demand for support characters for active plots that wish the legal system gets involved.
Agreed.
6. As stated in the past by Kalren, Players in the community can always choose to NPC a magistrate or make one themselves.
Exactly. When player character magistrates are called in they are asked to embellish in the best cases, and are frequently shouldered with the OOC responsibility to arbitrate.
7. Magistrate involvement is optional in all roleplay plots, never mandatory.
Agreed. They only have the power they are given by the participants.
8. A magistrate's powers are only limited to Stormwind. Outside the city walls is out of their jurisdiction.
ICly. OOCly, the decisions can have powerful effects. It's a very politically-sensitive role where much occurs in whispers and back-channels. It can be a frightfully-busy role that can consume days of time and energy with little advance warning. When called upon, being a magistrate is like becoming a guild master for a short-lived, involved RP guild, where everyone--player and character--wants to talk to you at once.
9. A magistrate can not control the army.
Thank the Light.
Remember, If a magistrate decides to abuse their powers by flexing political muscle, you can ignore them and 'switch' your case to another magistrate (NPCed or played by someone else). Just be kind and polite if you do this, because magistrates are played by people too with real emotions.
I would go a step further and suggest that people not play their main character as a magistrate, or at least have another character you can always run to in order to escape the OOC chaos that can form around one. I have lurked in the back rooms for many years. Being a magistrate is more player and less character. I can say with great certainty that the role is as enviable as holding public office.
P.S.: Jenafeine, I hope some of that helps answer your questions.
I can't believe Kelsus wants this sort over overhead. I sure as hell don't.
Anyway, my two bits more or less correspond to what Cal said. A magistrate is effectively judge, jury, and in some cases executioner for the RP community as a whole. For this to work, you -have- to have everyone behind it. There also has to be a very real need to put someone like that in place.
So after skimming this, my only real question is this. And I ask it of -all- global (Stormwind is effectively global) RP ideas.
Kelsus, if you could answer these for me:
Why do you feel that the addition of another Magistrate is both necessary and benificial for Stormwind's RP scene?
Can you honestly manage it between running your rather large very active guild?
I've seen some of the other magistrates during trial times. They've described it as more work then their fulltime job. Would you put the Guild aside to devote this much time when required for the Magistrate bit?
I do think you could honestly do the job and do it well. My only concerns are if the situation really warrents it and if you can give it the time it needs without cutting into your rather well running guild.
Also a personal thought, this position has destroyed people's will to publicly RP before and made them deal with a million different kinds of BS. I hope if this does go through, that this doesn't burn you out.
That guy behind Ash.
Sorry for the delayed response, guys. There's a Blizzard over here!
I apologize for not having answered your question sooner, Mirele.
Curroption as I wish to call it comes from the current storyline of the game. As some of you may recall that the Archbishop of the Cathederal turned to be a traitor...and before that you had the Major of the Guard go rogue. And from there, I kinda want to talk about enlarging the issues but maybe the issue of Curroption has faded away for the time being, I suppose.
Now, I also want to answer Asherrean's questions!
Why do you feel that the addition of another Magistrate is both necessary and benificial for Stormwind's RP scene?
After being in "limbo" for the past 6 months and seeing alot of...honestly, downhill of activity for Stormwind RP. I really want to revive it and I personally feel that the current Magistrates have not been too active, and I don't want to bash anyone, but it is my oberservation of the current situation in Stormwind City.
Can you honestly manage it between running your rather large very active guild?
I can honestly say, yes.
I believe that I can manage both the Conjurers Court and be an acting Magistrate. Because you see, having the Court has me to be very active on the server and around the community, and I believe that would benefit and help the role of being a Magistrate both ICly and OOCly.
I've seen some of the other magistrates during trial times. They've described it as more work then their fulltime job. Would you put the Guild aside to devote this much time when required for the Magistrate bit?
I've sat and watched many trials over my time on Earthen Ring. And I'm willing to make those commitments. I do hope that things can be flexiable and discussed over before final arrangments though. But I have great officers and I believe that the good community and members of it, are willing to comproise and work out on scheduling. And being a avid and active player, I feel that time is not a problem for me.
If there are anymore questions for me, i'll happily answer them. And do excuse my grammar. :( Cold fingers, haha.
There are some good points. I guess if guilds have a say in this I'm not opposed to Kelsus being a magistrate but i'd like him to do some research on medieval triails. Read the execution of Charles I or maybe some of the French Revolution stuff.
We can all disagree on if this is a medieval setting, the point is I'm right and you're all wrong. Kidding, the point is that's how I see it and I'd support any magistrate who:
Minimum OOC involvement
Is NOT fair (You're there to rule on something)
Is NOT fair the way that a medieval magistrate should be.
Also, I think there's currently enough magistrates for Stormwind. But, I'd be okay with Kelsus replacing someone OR being a Dalaran magistrate.
I've noticed a decrease in spontaneous RP as well as multi-cast storylines inside Stormwind. I'm certain there's still some, but I'm wondering if there is roleplay within Stormwind that would support a magistrate at this moment in time. Alliance roleplay has been shifting towards event-based RP for some time now, but that is a good topic for another thread.
Much like the current Stormwind Guard, the magistrate may have to expand its power to the Stormwind provinces, or the Alliance itself. Either-or, I'd be cautious to not purposefully use the role to hinder other's RP. Magistrates are a part of a roleplay judicial system, not ruling/dictating class.